The Game / We Know (Guest: Liz Ellis)

Liz Ellis (Letterboxd) returns! And she is ready to play a "The Game"  (1997  d. David Fincher). Starring: Michael Douglas, Deborah Kara Unger, and Sean Penn. It's time to play the game that is "The Review Review." It's all about the game, and how you play it. All about control. and if you can take it. All about your debt, and if you can pay it. It's all about pain, and who's gonna make it! Goof alert! WWE’re jokin’. It’s about other stuff, but also that. A THE GAME!

**All episodes contain explicit language**
Artwork - Ben McFadden
Review Review Intro/Outro Theme - Jamie Henwood
"What Are We Watching" & "Whatcha been up to?" Themes - Matthew Fosket
"Fun Facts" Theme - Chris Olds/Paul Root
Lead-Ins Edited/Conceptualized by - Ben McFadden
Produced by - Ben McFadden & Paul Root
Concept - Paul Root

Transcript

As he's got the everyman working class bona fides. Saying the phrase working class bona fides is such a fucking trick piece of shit Yeah. Own goal. Let's rock and or roll. Wait.

Hold on, Paul. Woah. Do you wanna play the game? I would like to play the game. Would you like to play the game?

I it's my that's what I ask you. The specificity of the is important. I'm fucking over the game, bro. I don't wanna a, I lost the game, like, nine times. Oh, shit.

I just lost the game. And b, I have no I'm done with the game. We're over the game. Can you guess what movie we did? Because I hate to break you.

We're still in the game. Still in the game. God. Damn it. Yeah.

The game does not end until you get the eternal slumber. That is your prize. That's the end of the game. Woah. That got dark.

Oh. No. I think it's no. I think it's fucking, spoiler alert, Groundhog's Day. You have to forgive your ex wife and and and be glad your brother's alive, and then you get to get off the train.

And despite everything you did to them or didn't do for them, you can forgive them for what you did to them. We're not at the end of the movie yet, but we are at the beginning of this podcast. Absolutely, we are. Hi, everyone. That was the voice of your co host.

His name is Ben. Benjamin, if you're not into the whole Brevity thing. So fucking hey. I am a cohost. My name is Paul.

You also heard the voice of our fabulous returning guest, Liz Ellis is here. Who is not into the brevity thing, which is, why she's a Fincher fan. I was gonna say, was the last time you were here Brazil? It was. Wow.

That was a long time ago. And stay verb verbose. We love it. Great. Keep it up.

Yeah. Keep up my my chatty Gilliam level banter at all times. Please do. We accept nothing less. This movie, I believe, was on my list, but it also abides by all of our basic rules.

It is seven years old or older. It's not part of a major franchise or a sequel and it is less than two hours and twenty two minutes. Although depending on who you talk to, they might disagree with you depending on what is the feel of that. Is it less than that? Who is to say, in the movie that we watched, we haven't been playing with you this entire time.

We've left all the clues. It's the game. Not to be confused the game. With War Games or Saw. Both who reference a game.

The game. Of which are, spoiler alert for this podcast, better movies. Oh. Woah. It's a ton.

I love it. I love it. I you know I do. I love just Dylan Defincher. Right?

Wrong. I like it. It would be cart ahead of horse for me to start talking about my opinion, but I will just say the reason because you you mentioned this this movie's off your list, and the intention I took when I went to your list was what's a movie where we might actually, like, you know, fight a little? Cups. Oh, wow.

To change each other's minds. Like, that's that's where this pick came from. Damn. But I don't know your opinions on it, so maybe we'll all just be like, we're in lock step here. Moving on.

The game is pooing on the game. It could be in a triumvirate. Well, I guess we're gonna find out. But, Liz, will you please tell us, enlighten us since the last time you were on, you and I walked many miles, many, many miles as people who believe that unions are massively important Oh, my god. And to the industry.

And we weren't able to discuss, some of the things that you should be able to celebrate. Will you celebrate them now? Man, is what you're asking me, what are my credits? Is that what you just asked me? What have you been up to?

Yeah. Can you hear me? Was the wildest way that you possibly could have phrased that. Have you how long has it been since you've been around Paul? I was so in the poetry of it.

Oh, thank you so much. Like Wow. I got a little I was wandering. You know? I was like Yeah.

Where is he going? Wandering our office. But I am a boss. And then I put his mouth. I brought it back.

John, what's the Bible quote? I was blind, but now I see. Look. Here's the thing. Since last time I was on the podcast, I think the madness came out, which I I definitely thought about while watching this just in terms of psychological thriller, man on the run who can't catch a break, being framed.

Is he losing his mind? Is he the subject of a vast conspiracy? Homa Domingo on Netflix, since Thanksgiving. Man, yeah, dude. He's the best.

He's the best actor. He's the best dresser. He's the best guy. We're we're a big Homa Domingo house. Absolutely.

And I also wanted you to mention that specific credit and how there's, like, correlation or whatever here. So I'm so glad you mentioned that very specific piece of it. Yeah. Absolutely. If anybody plays Sky Children of the Light, there's an adaptation of that, an animated project coming out, I believe, later this year, although nobody has given me an exact date.

Cool. Okay. I don't know what this game is. Is it like a it's an online game? Did you ever play Journey by that game company?

Maybe. It it's a it's mostly a mobile game, but it's also on Switch and other platforms. I should be able to pull off the cuff because I am a member of this team ostensibly. It's a big collaborative online mobile game. It's extremely popular in other countries, but not here.

So I'm not surprised that you are saying that. But you just you fly around and you collect light. It's lovely. That sounds great. Sounds delightful.

Delightful. Hey. Somebody who likes what was it? Katamari where you were just the little Katamari Damacy, baby. Great fucking game.

Yeah. Great game. I don't know I don't know why because this game has, like, monsters and apocalypse, but that game is feels so much more sinister to me, and this game feels so much more, like, light and optimistic and friendly. Oh. I like that.

Yeah. Color me, like, interested. After watching this movie, I could use some light. Yeah. There you go.

Yeah. Yeah. On the note of all this, what have people been doing? I've been meditating. Great.

Good for you. Something about me that probably not everyone knows is that I grew up in a household where my dad meditated a lot. There's a lot of spirituality, my upbringing and and sort of his like, we did family circles where we would, like, pass around a talking stick. So there was a sort of, like, nineties white guy. We have Native American paintings on the wall sort of vibe.

So for most of my life, I've been pretty, like, not against, but just, like, blocked off from that sort of stuff because it's it always just felt weird to me. And, like, when people would come over, I'd be like, yeah. There's, like, a family circle in the living room, and my dad might be naked outside at a sweat lodge. Don't just don't look out there. Man, your dad and my stepdad could just bro down.

My my stepdad just is nineties black guy naked outside meditating practicing kendo. I mean, just just just that far, just 90 degrees off. Not Yeah. Not anything. It it defies race.

It it goes beyond. You know? Yeah. My former stepdad, my mother's ex husband, Native American, kung fu, naked outside, very spiritual. So Okay.

So this isn't a nineties white guy thing. It's just dad vibes. Dad vibes. And and you know what the best part of this is? This all started because Ben has arrived.

Ben is in his nineties. Yeah. So United Colors of Benetton takes all kinds, you know, just, like, out there. What a reference. Dick in the wind.

Yeah. That's the name of the brain. About flowers. I've been meditating Hey. You'll find your way.

Outside. That was the end of my sentence. Nothing at all. Nothing I thought you might talk about time machine. I was I'm like, so that's well, I'm not We are in the time machine now.

I haven't well, we are in nineteen nineties. Mhmm. Mhmm. No. I I the reason I brought that up was just because I meditation has never been something that I have found appealing nor did I think it was something that I would ever do.

Because, like, my dad literally would meditate while we were in line at Disneyland when I was a kid. Woah. I didn't so so anyway, for a couple weeks now, I've been meditating every morning, just ten minutes, and it's great. I can't recommend it enough to be completely honest. I will say you do have very, like, calm guy who meditates vibes.

Mhmm. Like, I've played I don't know what you guys call it, but werewolf or the murder party, the game where you Yeah. Nominate murderers. Yeah. Yeah.

Freighters, the whole thing. Sure. I played that game with you, and I have noted that you were unflappable in that context. And and so I feel like maybe that's where this comes from. I also just to just keep bringing it back, don't you wish that Sean Penn had suggested meditation?

Could've skipped could've skipped the whole movie. There's Hey. You know what, man? Maybe you should think about the way you're acting. Yeah.

Clear your mind, bro. Things that he could've suggested other than But he would have thought that was new agey whatever. I don't wanna That's what dad did naked outside. He was taking his brain and shit, and look at what happened to dad. Twist their dadization.

Same thing. Paul, what have you been doing? That actor, it's like they couldn't get Kirk Douglas or what? I don't know. He looks a lot like Kirk.

It does look a lot like him, but I just, like, didn't understand it. As we've been talking about games and the Switch, and I wanna be among y'all in the conversation. I I wanna be in the among us. I've been playing Mario Golf, like, a good amount because my back's been bugging me. Rainy.

And I know the Switch two is coming out. Yeah, man. And I'm I'm just honoring the Switch and the greatness of Mario Golf and Mario Kart and things of this nature. I've just been enjoying playing the Switch. I'm not a huge video game person.

I don't think I talk about video games a whole lot on here. Do we talk about video games a lot? On occasion, what is everyone's favorite Switch video game? Well, Sky Children's Light is available on Nintendo Switch. Way to walk the fixing lane.

I love it. Excellent. Plug opportunity. Yes. Mhmm.

And if you feel like watching the ad for the Switch release of Sky Children's Light written by, Charlie Pope who Ben probably has met, maybe, and me. But I've been getting a little better at the Mario Golf. I'm I'm enjoying it. It's mostly relaxing. And you asked favorite game, then on it's on a totally different side of a coin.

It's like a dichotomy. It's I love Smash Brothers on the Switch. I love being Little Mac, the little boxer dude from Punch Out. I have a great time with that game. And I'm so bad at that game.

And then Mario Golf, I think, maybe. Just like, you know, pretty relaxing overall, especially if you don't use the little moves and don't go to the scary courses with the mean stompy guys and stuff. You know? Just 18 holes by yourself? Great.

Everyone can enjoy that. Liz, what have you been doing? Getting ready to put my house on the market, which means all day every day. I'm doing the things that I've been looking at about this house for two and a half years wishing I would fix. I'm fixing them all right now, and then I'm gonna leave and not appreciate them.

Like, all that there was a weird gap between two cabinets in my closet. Caulked it. Painted it. Looks amazing. That was yesterday.

And now we're getting out of here. Today, spreading mulch, you know, it's gonna look the best it's ever looked for someone else and, never for me. Well, what does that tell you? That I should value myself more deeply, probably. Oh.

I live with a by the deadline. I have no I have no ability to do something today that could be put off till tomorrow. Do you think people shooting at you would help you come to this realization? Oh. As far as I can tell, nothing brings about an epiphany like murdering your family.

Yeah. But the good news is it's not always too late. Sometimes it's just a goof. You're like, good times and noodles out. Sometimes it's it's just a goof fun.

Let's just party with the with all of the people. You could just send somebody a bunch of the same DVD or something, or you could shoot them in the chest on a goof. Was that your way of telling me I needed to change my life? Hey, Paul. What have you been watching?

Not on a goof. I watched some movies from a director named Glickenhaus is the last name. That is a goof. Whether it's real or not, it's a fucking good That's a goof. Is brought to you by Goofing Around by a goof?

On CBS. Goofing around. Classic CBS. So this James Glickenhaus, this director did a movie called McBain with Chris Walken and a movie called Shakedown with Sam Elliott and doctor Peter Weller, and he's done a bunch of movies. And they're pretty violent.

I don't wanna say, like, hyper violent. They're not Verhoeven violent or something, but they're pretty violent. And they've got this Walter Hill, John Melius, but a little more socially aware or caring kind of thing. And I enjoyed this journey for the most part. And he did a Jackie Chan movie that was odd called The Protector.

I still liked it, but then I watched rewatched Bowling for Columbine. Oh, god. I am not a big Michael Moore person. Yeah. I like Roger and me okay.

Fahrenheit, nine eleven, and some of the other things are what they are. I I feel like I can read his brand. He also said some I want to give him credit for some stuff that he said. I want to say it was in 2016 about like you have no idea the amount of people that are going to want certain things or whatever. And, yeah, I don't even wanna really give it a lot of oxygen.

But it was really odd watching that movie after watching these pretty violent movies with everybody toting guns and whatnot, and just the weirdness of guns in American culture and culture in general. And I don't know. It was weirdly slightly better for me than I thought it was gonna be. Again, because it's, normally this is not my dude in terms of documentarians, but what a at times like really relevant effective thing, there are also things that are clearly like that insert is weird. That insert shot, like, why are you putting in this insert in this documentary?

But okay. But overall, it was, it was an interesting journey to go from these, like, violent eighties, nineties, super machismo action movies to this, like, why is that okay or is that part of the the issue or whatever. It was just an interesting journey. He's not, like, the most palatable dude. I'm never that happy to see him.

Right. But he is it's like there's so many times that I've been like, how come nobody talks about this? And then it's like, well, Michael Moore has been yelling about it for twenty years. And I'm like, man, he does say the shit somebody's gotta say a lot of the time. I don't think I'll ever understand why he, like, verbally attacked Dick Clark that one time, but other than that That was in Bowling for Columbine.

And it was it was boiled down to work for welfare and some issues that you could kind of correlate with what that program directly created in terms of gun you know, Dick Clark's name was on it and what it the whole thing is rewatch the movie. I I'd be interested to have the conversation about how we're both like, what what was the aim or how does Yeah. This guy clearly knows how corporate structures and stuff probably work. Yeah. Yeah.

Did he think Dick Clark was gonna, like, walk into the corporate offices and be like, hey. You know who he reminds me of is those kids that throw paint on paintings on, like, you know, classic works. Where I'm like, god. What are you doing? And then I'm like, fucking more than I'm doing, which is nothing.

And then I shut up. And then I shut up. It's the same peep it's like the, there's, like, climate protesters who, like, interrupts, like, a show, like, on Broadway or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. There's the part of me that's, like, what what the fuck are you? And then I'm, like, well, I'm watching it. And then they they shit they're showing it to me.

To the note of something about this movie, when something it's a bummer because it's art and we're creative people. I think we can we all enjoy stage works since we're specifically talking about this. Yes. Speak for yourself. But but yeah.

Depending on what the show is or whatnot, largely that audience is, like, very bored. Very affluent people that don't have a lot of difficulty in life, and these people are giving them kind of a dose of reality. So, I kind of I'm agreeing with you where it's like it's this weird double edged sword where it's like well I want artists to be able to art but I also like that these people that normally don't have to deal with being with humaning and dealing with problems or whatever. Like, I feel like they don't anyway. It's a dose of reality.

I do feel like what was the play? Jeremy Strong, I feel like, was in, a play that that happened to him. He just rolled with it. He was like, I'm in character, and we're doing this. And I remember seeing that clip.

It went viral just because it was such a weird interaction. But I remember seeing that clip and being like, nobody's at this fucking play who doesn't who isn't on board. But there is, like, a, like, a Neil Young jukebox musical where I'll bet it's I'll bet that room is 87% tourists from Topeka who could probably, like, use the message. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But Liz, what do you mean? To, like, shit on Topeka. I don't know where that came from. You meant Toledo.

Right? You meant Toledo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Toledo. Fuck those people. I've never been. It's probably great. No.

It's not. It's in Ohio. I'm gonna shut up. What what I've been watching Yeah. Today, I watched nineteen ninety seven's The Game by David Fincher.

Great. His second his second feature, if you don't count Alien three, which, yeah. He he doesn't. I know he doesn't. Alien three, also a better movie than this.

I've been watching Slow Horses. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. Severance.

Right? Yeah. But I wanna take the time to specifically recommend my favorite thing I've been watching lately that I can't find anybody to talk to about, except for my friend Jean Kyung Frasier whose name I saw in the credits and was like, I need to talk to you about this. Common side effects on, I think, Max. It's an animated series.

It's not created by Mike Judge, but it, like, has some Mike Judge aesthetic things. And he is an EP, and he's clearly playing several of the characters. One of them, a CEO named Rick with whom I might be in love. Just the just the exact opposite of, you know, Gordon Gekko, whatever asshole that we've got going on here. But, yeah, it's it's a it's a sort of an antidote to some of the adult animation du jour that has gotten a little, same joke sometimes.

And it's very stylish and very sort of tender and unexpected and with a fun conspiracy and just some of my favorite characters on TV right now are in this fucking Mike Judge adjacent animated series that I love. Can you say the name of it one more time? Common Side Effects. Okay. Max Max has been pushing it at me.

I'm now I'm ready to go over the edge. Hell, yeah, brother. Twenty minute episodes. What's the fucking commitment? You can do that.

I love that. I mentioned a show on here recently called the Vince Staples Show, and it was, like, fourteen, sixteen minute episodes. And I thought it was just so massively consumable. So great. Not to shorter things.

Quibi. Not to bring it not to bring it back to the madness, but I co wrote my episode of the madness with, Maurice Williams who co created the Vince Staples show with Vince Staples. And I will check that on IMDB to make sure that that is still true. But, it was true once, and, yeah. I'm a huge fan of Vince Staples and a huge fan of Maurice.

Hey, Ben. Yeah. Ben, people know who Vince Staples is. Fuck. I I learned something else today.

He's not made up. He's a weird cat, dude. I love his brain. Me too. I feel the same way.

Yeah. That is a fact. Right, Ben? What were you just gonna pass over on what I've been watching? I thought you were saying.

I thought you had said. I want you to tell me. Tell me what it was. What? What were you watching?

I haven't said anything yet. Well, tell me. Now? Yeah. You want me to tell you what I've been watching now?

Unless Liz and I wanna keep going on about Vince Staples and up to Liz. I mean, he he interviews like no other. An interviewer an interviewer either has to be, like, Z Wave Fumito, like, ready to fucking just, like, get in there, like, dukes up and just, like, jab and have a good time, or they're gonna look dumb because he's gonna say weird shit, and, they gotta be ready. How about that, Ben? Okay.

That once again, I've learned so much that other people know the things that you are talking about. So last night, we finished watching Paradise, which I don't know if I've talked about on this show, but it's the Dan Fogelman created it, which I thought was relevant just because it's also a show that at least for the first couple episodes, has you really questioning the reality of it. And I don't know if anyone else is familiar. Has anyone watched is watching or are going to watch? Sterling k Brown is the lead and and and James Marsden.

And they, What a pair. Their performances are phenomenal. I don't think James Marsden gets enough credit, to be honest. I think that, like, he is very capable of both comedy and serious stuff. And I think he got really shoehorned by playing a really boring version of Cyclops for three movies.

Yes. But I will say one of my favorite things a person can be is a really good supporting player. And as as sort of boring as he was in Cyclops as Cyclops, he was the perfect foil for Logan. And Sure. He then just continued to be third banana and knock it out of the park in weird thing after weird thing.

Like, he has one of the most eclectic resumes, and it's all a fucking delight. I love that guy. I wanna say too and not Jury duty. Not joking yet. Like, he's for what they are, what you think they are, what have you.

The Sonic movies, I find them pretty entertaining, and he's really he knows the movie he's in. He's really good at that. And as we're talking about movies that have portions that are set in Washington, I like the first couple Sonic movies that I've seen, and he's solid. So anyway, I think Paradise is worth a watch. I didn't love This Is Us, which is Dan Fogelman's last creative thing.

I thought it, for me, I felt it very, like, saccharin. And this doesn't this doesn't really kinda go into that. It's much different. It's more of a thriller mystery sort of thing. Last episode didn't really stick the landing for me, but there's another season, I think.

So Sterling k Brown also is just like a gym of a human to watch. So Yeah. Well and, you know, it's so much easier to stick the landing when there's, like, a perfectly placed landing pad to land on. Hey. Hey.

Hey. Hey. Random. Because that makes And breakaway glass to slow your fall. Yeah.

And he absolutely didn't piss and shit himself. Right? No. Just that homeless, guys. He couldn't have been less attractive if he had.

Anyway, we should go to the we should go to the facts, That that was Fincher's number one request. This is that's why he disowns this movie too. Because he was like, people should be pissing and shitting, and they're like, David, too dark. That would be the, Andrew Kevin Walker of it all, really, I would think. Right.

This is seven again? Ben, the facts. I'm sorry. Archaeology is the search for fact. The facts of the everyone pay attention.

I'm gonna explain the game. We watch the game. That's the rule of the that's the goal of the game. The rule of the game is you don't talk about the game. Wait.

The game from how many times can I say the game? That's the game. That's the game. Yeah. Polygram propaganda.

It is rated r. It is from 1997 and is two hours and nine minutes. The budget of this movie is 50,000,000 adjusted. That is 99.4. Opening weekend was 09/14/1997.

Made 14,300,000.0 in The US and 28.4 adjusted. Final gross, North America, 40 8 Point 3 Million adjusted. That is 96,000,000. Final gross worldwide is a hundred 9.4, adjusted 217.4. So pretty good right out of the gate for Fincher's first sort of major blockbuster, would you call it?

I don't know. Weekend top five, this film, GI Jane, Fire Down Below, Money Talks, and The Full Monty. Other films from 1997, Home Alone three, a movie I auditioned for, Gone Fish What? Stop. Untacked.

Go back. Stop. Did I not talk about that? I feel like I've talked about that. Well, do it again.

They did, like, a I I got my first agent when I was in fourth grade, and they were doing like a global search or a national search for the the main kid for home o three. That's all you're I I went to a glorified cattle call. Paul's dying. No one can hear it because he turned off the audio, but oh, is he dead, or is this is this fake? Is this real?

Liz, what's going on? Was this is this a paid actor who took too hard of a blinker in the podcast? You're working with a professional. I know it's a I know it's not a big part, but we could've gotten someone better. Right?

Nice fucking model. Yeah. Who what is this guy in in medication commercial? I met a girl on Gordon Street. What are you?

From central casting? So, anyway, I auditioned for that cattle call. It was at Seattle Central Community College on Capitol Hill. Obviously, did not get that, but that was one of my first big missions and experiences with cattle calls. Oh, man.

Gone Fishin', Contact, Con Air, Copland, Nothing to Lose, Mars Attack, and Air Force One. I'm telling you, I'm not gonna do anything. What this is? Okay. Get off my Am I getting ahead of the facts if I talk about how the production of contact affected this movie?

Oh, I don't believe you are. Contact in here? Please go. Jodie Foster was one of the people considered for Sean Penn's role. Mhmm.

She's twenty years younger than Michael Douglas. So part of the stall was she didn't wanna play his sister. She wanna play his daughter, and he didn't like that. I think that would have been a rad shift Yeah. In this.

And we can talk about why later to have it be his daughter instead of his brother, but they hemmed and hawed, and then she booked contact. So that was the end of that. You were ahead of it of pieces of it, but we'll get there. It'll be puzzle pieces that we can shift and put back together and Look. Liz like a roller coaster for the game.

We know exactly how this podcast is gonna go because we calculated your exact personality to every possible scenario. So we know we know exactly what's gonna happen. We already know how you're gonna re piece it together. We knew we knew we were gonna say that. We knew we were gonna Yep.

Yep. Yep. I knew you were gonna say, yep. We're always finishing each other's sandwiches. Sandwiches.

Sent sand And if I didn't jump, you're gonna have to throw me. I'm gonna party with you now. You took a look at the jumps do. Into the exact area. He coulda shot those kids, but they knew he wouldn't.

Oh, your friend, little pig. But that was a fake gun. Every gun was though. What I mean Okay. Let's keep going.

Okay. Letterboxx. Average of this movie is 3.8. Follow us on Letterboxx. I am not at Paul x Badly.

Well, I'm not at Run BMC. Liz Ellis. Not at Liz Ellis, Liz. You're at Liz Ellis. Am I?

I think it's just Liz Ellis. That would be baller if I pulled that off. And Liz Ellis Liz on a lot of things. Yeah. Sure.

Which is stupid. Liz sandwich. Siskel and Ebert were split. Ebert was up. Rotten Tomatoes, 77%.

Popcorn meter, 84%. Metacritic, 63. User, 7.7. Major wins and nominations was a Saturn award for best action thriller. And as Paul would say, Saturn Awards, big deal.

This This is a genre movie. This is it needs to you're gonna get recognition from something. You want it to be the Saturn Awards. You call action thrillers genre movies? Is that a thing we call them?

Those are genres. If you if you watch a glicken house comedy. Like If you watch a glicken house, that's in the genre. They got goose in there? They got goose in there.

I betcha. Paul, you tell us about some goofing people. I said goose in there. That's goofy. Oh, the the goof of all goofs on this one is director David Fincher on the goof.

The girl with the dragon tattoo in The US, zodiac, alien, tiny three. Liz, you like alien tiny three or it's acceptable? I actively dislike alien tiny three, probably. It's been a really long time. I have rewatched both alien and aliens enough times to speak on them with authority.

Alien three, I saw once on VHS. So let's not let's not get into it. And I can still say with confidence, better than the game. Thank you. Writers, John Brancato and Michael Farris, the writing team, Terminator Salvation, The Net, Mindwarp, The Unborn, director of photography, Harris Savids, American Gangster, Finding Forester, Jerry.

Music was Howard Shore. The Fly from '86, Doubt, A History of Violence. Producers, Brancato and Ferris. Flight of the Black Angel, Sian? Hi.

It's Paul from The Edit. Go ahead and put me on the doing too much countdown as you'll hear Liz say later. Sean. Sean. Shaffin Mank, Fight Club.

Steve Golan, RIP, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and Candyman from '92. Sean Chaffin is or was married to Pincher, I think? Believe so. Yes. And I would imagine is given that some of those credits are recent.

I think they are I believe they are married. Okay. I think I do wanna say there were there were a lot more writers involved with this story, including Andrew Kevin Walker. You're ahead of the facts again. Oh, damn it.

No. I love it. Move on. Expound when you get there, though. Knew you were going to do that already.

We knew we had a feeling. It's all calculated. We had a feeling. We had that piece set aside. We knew it was a corner piece.

Mhmm. Michael Douglas was Nicholas. Let's just say it. Nicholas Van Orton. Gotta say it.

Black Rain, solitary man. Get Bruce. Those are your pulls for Michael Douglas? This is what I did with those. What do you This is what I do.

Ben. Nine one one. Yeah. You're upset that she's calling you out for like, rightly calling you out for that? I give a little I I give it, then I take it away.

Yes. I've heard of Vince Staples. No. I have not heard of Get Bruce. Get Bruce.

There's an exclamation point. That's because it's a musical. I don't know that. I don't I don't it is now. I don't care.

Sean Penn was Conrad or we have to say it, Connie. Mystic River. Conrad does rad cons, so he's involved with them. You gave Sean Penn his Oscar nominated turns. I just wanna point that out.

And you gave What? Michael Douglas get Bruce. Go on. Michael Keaton Douglas? But, no, this is just Michael Douglas.

This is just Michael Douglas. Got it. Milk and u-turn. Deborah, Cara, Unger, Christine, slash Claire, payback crash from '96. You may be thinking, is that the crash that fixed racism?

No. No. This is the crash that fixed Our dads fix racism. This is the crash where people got horny for violent car accident. The good one.

The good crash. You know? The James Cader one. Yeah. Yeah, baby.

And the hurricane. James Reebhorn, r I p, was Jim slash something else. The talented mister Ripley, Scent of a Woman, Far From Heaven. Peter Donnet, r I p, was Samuel. Fist, the War of the Roses, the China Syndrome.

Carol Baker, Ilsa, kindergarten cop You're not so tough on Ironweed. Are you? Knife of ice. That is one of the coolest fucking titles, I think. Knife of ice.

I have that spell in D and D. It's a cantrip. Awesome. Interested in the spell, interested in the movie, based it on on title alone. Fantastic.

Anna Katarina was Elizabeth, the dictator angels and demons, Batman returns. Listen to one of two versions, at least one of them, if not both, of our Batman returns episode. Armand Muller Stahl was Anson, the power of one, a throwback Daniel Craig, Morgan Freeman, Stephen Dorff movie that I remember liking when I was young? Anyone power of one? Oh, absolutely.

Yeah? Yeah. Ben, have you seen that movie? I have not. I John G.

Abelson, I think, was director, can do these heartstring movies, these these emotional movies, I think, very well. That's one of those. Shania say oh, go ahead. No. Oh, and Eastern Promises, now please say.

Well, I literally just looked it up because you didn't have an RIP after Armand Miller stole, and I was like, there's no way that guy is still alive. Still with us. 94 years old. We we knew, Liz. We knew.

I fact checked you, and I just wanted to apologize for doubting. Way to just own that. You didn't even have to. You have some fun facts for me. Some fun facts.

Fun facts. Fun facts, everybody. It's fun fact time. The limit does not exist. Director, writer, actor Spike Jones makes an uncredited appearance in this film as an EMT.

He was a member of, propaganda as well. Right? There are that's there's a whole class of, like, cofounder, like, cool kid directors of that era, Michel Gondry and Michael Bay is less of a cool kid, but whatever. Thank you. I think you're right on the whole thing.

But I think they're all bros. Prolific writers, Andrew Kevin Walker, eight millimeter, a movie he doesn't acknowledge and has never seen, event horizon, a movie I will defend to the death, and Larry Gross, forty eight hours, Streets of Fire, performed uncredited touches drafts on the script for this film. I blame Larry Gross because I don't like forty eight hours either. Right? So I'm just deciding that he's to blame.

And I love the net, so I can't blame those other writers. Director writer Jonathan Mostow, breakdown u five seven one, was the executive producer AKA Da Money for the game. Jonathan Mostow was originally set to direct the film in 1993 with Kyle MacLachlan as Nicholas Van Orton and Bridget Fonda as Christine. I'm editorializing here, but I think Kyle MacLachlan would have added some much needed likability. The character.

The role of Van Orton's sibling was originally cast with Jodie Foster. Foster later expressed desire to play Van Orton's daughter and was replaced with Sean Penn. You guys, I didn't even read ahead. But here I am saying my own I spoiled my own section of the document. We know.

Proud of me. We know. Proud of me. We know. You saw this coming.

That's why you assigned it to me. What a goofy movie. Was replaced with Sean Penn. And it was originally written as a brother, and then they were like, what if it was Jodie Foster? And then she was like, what if he's she's the daughter, and then contact happened.

This resulted in a lawsuit that settled out of court. Jeff Prawn. Bridges was also offered the role and turned down the role of Conrad. The symbol used as the CRS logo is the Penrose triangle, an impossible object optical illusion. Throughout the film, CRS's initials also stand for several names, California regal sedans, cable repair services, and consumer recreation services.

Despite its box office success and misguided cult following, David Fincher has admitted in interviews that he's not proud of the film because he has great taste. He has stated that he should never have made the film, citing that they couldn't get the third act. One more fun fact that I think will entice everyone here. My wife and and former guest of this podcast, Jessica Aaron Martin Bring her back. Claimed as she left couple hours ago for work that this was her favorite Fincher.

You never know, babe. Woah. So that is why I wanted to talk about it because, it's one of those movies that a lot of people with whom I normally tend to agree on artistic stuff fucking love this movie. And I'm hoping you guys like this movie because I think it would be fun to, roll initiative here. Oh, I got ice of knife or knife of ice.

Woah. Okay. The D and D cantrip is actually just called ice knife. I know. I know.

Okay. I know. I just wanted to the the pen in me could could stand in if you said it once or twice, but right now Ben was so disappointed about hearing the one thing he didn't know. No. Let's just call it knife of ice for the program, please.

Yeah. I'm playing a game. I'm doing a thing. I'm doing something. Playing bug games.

Don't ruin my thing. Just a goof. It's a goof. Goofs all by then. Goof?

People like this movie. I am confused by that. I would like to hear why. This is our first Fincher. No?

The first of a potential Fincher Fest? It is a potential Fincher Fest. Holy shit. Not a it could have been a February Fincher Fest, but it it will most likely not be. It definitely wasn't because that was the past.

It was the present. Unless we wait a year. I don't know. Hey, Liz. What is the log line of this movie?

Give us your best guess or, you know, make it up or, you know, we already know what you're gonna say, so it doesn't matter. A group of yeah. Just fucking large language model me and figure out what I would say the log line of this movie was. Yeah. A hang on.

You can you have dead air here that you can edit out while, while the the rusty cogs turn. Do do do do do do. Yeah. Exactly. Do do do do.

If Shutter Island didn't have an aesthetic. That's my log line for this movie. See, that's a movie I I actively dislike. Oh, Paul, do you like Shutter Island? I do not.

Damn it. Oh. I just want I just want conflict. And And if we all agree on Shutter Island, just draw a line under it. Have you have you listened to our aliens three episode?

Because Paul and I definitely get into it. Oh, yeah. Oh, I haven't. Okay. And I Big fan.

That should have been a signed reading for me so that I could come in here fucking swinging. Because I normally only listen to your episodes about movies that I have an opinion about. You know what I mean? Sure. Of course.

Makes sense. I have not really seen any entry in the past. We had a guest bring the Fifth Element at a point and brought Ben and I down to Earth as if we were a big flaming evil planet that had to be destroyed and was in terms of, like, Ben and I had a reverence for it. And guest was like, because, you know, no. No.

And why? Let's decide. Problematic behind the scenes, but, man, I it it's hard for me to imagine. A a trickle of chocolate syrup would definitely come down my temple as I admitted that I didn't like that movie because I didn't love that movie. It's so pretty at times too.

It's just Allison just hype you think Chris Tucker Chris Tucker should be in everything. Name a movie Chris Tucker doesn't belong in. The game. Dare you. We should, we should take a small break so we can get, you know, we have our sponsor goofing around on CBS this spring.

They're making a goofy movie too. A goofy movie too? They're making a goofy movie too. As well. As well.

And my actual before we take the break, my actual log line my actual log line for the movie we're gonna discuss when we get back is a man with nothing that he wants in life is still unhappy until an expensive bespoke conspiracy is formed around him, leading to everyone being fine, apparently. I always like when the word bespoke is used, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say that's great. Here's the log line. After a wealthy San Francisco Banker is given an opportunity mysterious game, his life is turned upside down as he begins to question if it might really be a concealed conspiracy to destroy him. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun.

It's a goof. Dun dun dun dun. Might just be a goof. Alright. It could all just be a goof.

We're gonna get come back and we're gonna play Cinephile. BRB. Coming to LaserDisc for the first time, April 31 via a review review limited release. It's the GBS comedy classic starring Pat O'Malley and Sean Sven. I hope you're goofing about with me.

Two comedians from opposite coast cheerfully collide in Central Chicago and can't figure out this whole Steppenwolf second city improv deal and all that shit. And fun times Holy Smokes, those ensue via, like, a four d chess kinda thing in in in improv and that sort of thing as Dana and Pat played by Pat and Sean. Yes. And and their way through living, laughing, and loving their way around and through and in and five mildly amusing episodes. That's right.

This April 31 will be your chance to purchase one of these very limited laser discs for one payment of $1.19 99. That's five episodes and two whole seasons. How can you do this, you ask? Follow the review review on Instagram and or blue sky at review x two podcast for official release information. Like, follow, share, subscribe, and rate the podcast wherever you listen.

Follow Ben at Run BMC and Paul at Paul x Battle dot aiocn Letterboxd. Now, back to the program. I didn't know there was an as well. I it just made me wanna say garish, but not for any reason. For or any sort of copy written thing.

Just because I like to say that word. Yeah. This this also feels like, the game right now. Is there a little of the game? We do have the game.

It's called Chinephile. Are did we play Chinephile when you were here, Les? No. Definitely not. Are you familiar with said game?

Only in this context. So please enlighten me as though I were a neophyte. Break it down. I'm gonna do this, and you're gonna tell me I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna show you a card.

It'll have an actor's name on it. You get to say that actor's name as well as the movie that's written on here. There'll be a movie written in really fine yellow ink. It's hard to read, so do your best. We'll keep going around until one of us messes up.

Now before we play this game, Liz, we're gonna need you to fill out some forms Mhmm. Take a physical. It's only gonna take a couple of hours, and then you'll be able to go on with, the problem here. I know you were skeptical, but I think you're gonna commit to about eight hours of tests here. Mhmm.

Cool. Yeah. I know you. You know what's cool about that is I don't have anything else going on in my life. I've been demonstrated that I'm a very patient person who puts up with changing expectations really well Yep.

And is super chill about that. So that makes sense. That seems like something I would do. Great. Alright.

So you you just push money around for no reason. Like, you're not actually necessary. Tell me when to stop. It's true. In the context of the game.

Stop. Of life. Alright. I'm gonna show this to the camera. I'm gonna look away.

Tell me if you can't read it. Got it. I figured it out through context clues. I figured out the shape of it, and I know who that person is. So Go for it.

Laura Dern, Jurassic Park. Wild at heart. I'm gonna go with Jurassic Park three. We can stop. No.

The game is over. We can't actually stop. The game is actually over. Don't worry. Everything's fine.

This is unreal. You didn't actually get approved for the game, so we didn't play it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You can't play. Sorry. Unfortunately, your bank accounts have been drained. But not your boss. Sorry.

Look. Whoop. Not yet. Maybe at the airport. Yeah.

You know what? Look. Here's the thing. I've seen Laura Dern in 50 movies, and right now, marriage story. Okay.

Mhmm. Oh, we Jurassic World Dominion? God damn it. With the I started it. Yeah.

Well, I knew I knew we were gonna hit all of them. Blue velvet? Damn it. That's what I had in the chamber. What happens if I fail?

Do I is it shameful? Do I experience shame? You do. But we'll party about it, but you do get shamed. Great.

It's kinda in, like, a goofy way. You don't have to take it super seriously. We'll party too. So now tell us about your first experience watching the game, what your rating out of five would have been then, and your most recent experience and your current rating out of five. You know, I don't remember what my first experience was with it other than I had heard about it.

I had heard it was good. I watched it, and I found no value in it. And when I was doing the thing we all did and that was in, like, high school or middle school. And then when I was doing the thing we all did when we got letterbox accounts where you just, like, periodically scroll through lists and just rate things because you're like, I've seen all these movies click click click click click click. Apparently, I gave it two stars.

That's what I found out when I opened Letterboxd today. But I am officially as of my watching today, I would like to give this movie one half of a bookshelf thickness of book. What do you call that? A false front of a book. Oh.

It's half a book. Yeah. It's not it's but it's the it's not the half you think it is. It's not the half you think it is. Yeah.

It's the decorative forward half of a shelf full. It's a facade. It's a book facade. Book facade. I give this movie one book facade AKA half star.

It's time to take a Wow. And I all. Yeah. I hate this movie, you guys. I hate so few movies.

Okay. I hate so few movies. Paul? Woof. Well, hey.

This might have been the first David Fincher I saw. I saw it at the theater far too old. I might have been it was like a senior discount day or something. Nope. Too young.

Probably it was too young, I think. I was absolutely mesmerized by this movie as a young person. It was like a four and a half for me, and I can say that because I've watched this movie two times total since my theater experience. I did that blasting through Letterboxd and being like, well, this was this. This was this.

This was this. And gave it a four and a half. I don't think I've seen this movie since the George w Bush presidency? I don't know. A long time ago as weird as I'd say.

What? Good times. No. Just looking back at you know? Fondly.

Good times. The good home movies that bring back fond memories. But I my dad. Jumping above you. Correct.

What what what goof is this, dad? Stop goofing around, dad. Who was the eight millimeter like, why is it like a Joel Schumacher. Who's holding the camera? Like, hey, there's somebody just goofing around on the room.

Oh my god. Ilsa. I assume it's Ilsa. Some sort of paid servant in the home. I watched this today.

First time I'd seen it in quite a while. I had pretty good time with the movie. It's not a four and a half. That's for certain. It is a four monogrammed dress shirts, but one of those monogrammed dress shirts might need at least a Tide pen or something for me to keep it where it's at.

I'm very interested to have this conversation because I think so much of the movie not only is I enjoy the ride, but I enjoy this What is the equivalent to I don't know like a George Soros like who now six was managing $600,000,000 worth of wealth. So like someone who would be a billionaire at this point. I enjoy kind of watching him get the shit kicked out of him and kind of maybe lose his mind. So there's a definitely a level of that, but it's it's four monogrammed dress shirts, but one of them is not looking great. It may we'll see we'll see where we are.

Pen pen ink in the pocket. Exactly. At, like, you're having way too good of a time at the airport watching those planes, loving watching those fucking planes. Mhmm. And you lose all track of existence.

And you look like quite the goof with the fucking shit in your pocket. Ben. First off, Liz was so happy you said four. She's she's over the moon. I'm blissing right now.

It was all I wanted because I just think I my it's hard to find a true review of who Yeah. Subject where because I what I wanted to do was come on this podcast with the actual intention of disagreeing and trying to change each other's minds. Please go on, Ben. Or Jessica Martin as your Zoom, thing says. Great great subject, though, for it.

Like, well done. Well chosen. If I was Jessica Martin so I hadn't seen this movie. Jessica Martin had always told me that this was her favorite Fincher. My favorite Fincher is Social Network.

Mhmm. I think that's his best work, mostly. And sport Now I have to pick a favorite Fincher while you're talking. I think followed closely by Fight Club. I hadn't seen this.

And in our, days of the days of yore, otherwise known as COVID, I had a lot of Fifth anniversary of the lockdown, dog. I know. Yay. I had a lot of time in my hands. Yeah.

Crazy. Right? Fucking crazy. And I thought, I'll throw on this Fincher that I haven't seen. And that whole time frame of lockdown is a little blurry for me.

It could have been a lot of the whiskey, mostly the whiskey probably. But I thought it was I thought it was alright. I remember watching it, like, her telling me it was her favorite and watching it as as it unfolded thinking like, a lot of this doesn't really hold water. I'm I'm kind of losing the thread here. I'm I'm entertained.

It's like paced well and lit and colored well and, like and what I think so, anyway, I'm I'm I'm bearing the lead, but I watched it again last night. And, oh, I guess in that viewing, I probably would have given it three and a half. In this viewing, I was watching it, and I think it's one of those movies that when you get below it's a facade of a movie. I think if you once you start kind of getting below the surface of it and I think the surface level of the movie is actually quite entertaining, and I think it actually, like, feels and paces and draws you in in a way that that, like, any sort of, like, good thriller movie does. The biggest problem I have with this movie is the amount of suspension of disbelief that I am supposed to have.

And without any sort of, like, for lack of a better term, without a big old thing that land in. Because in a lot of movies where the realities are like where you're questioning the reality like Truman Show, Inception, you know, like these movies, there's a there's a crux to it. There's a reason for it. There's something that's like there's a dream. There's a television network.

This I'm just supposed to believe it's this, like, company? And you put the squids right there? Right there. And and, like, the exact precision of it, I'm like, it just it really starts to, like, fall apart in my hands the second I start Mhmm. To, like, look at it from that angle, as well as the character just not being anyone.

Like, if that character had jumped off the roof and fucking died, I wouldn't have given a shit. Like, at at that point, I was really, like, uninvested in that person. I was telling Jess because she we only got to briefly talk about it as she left, but I was, like, this is, like, if Scrooge had to come to the realization that he had to kill himself to make his life better. This is David Fincher's Christmas Carol. Except it doesn't have any magical elements to it whatsoever.

Yeah. No. It's not supposed to anyway. Right? But it doesn't.

There there's no magical elements to it, and Scrooge never goes to a point where he feels like he has to kill himself in any version of that story. That to me was, like, what a wild and then and then he's okay with it. It's like, you guys you guys got me good. And it felt like to me and I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but it feels like to me at the end, there was like, how do you end it? I don't know.

He gets the girl? It's like, oh, is that what this movie was about? He was it was about him getting a girlfriend, I guess. I don't know. Also, that girl, charming as she is, we know nothing about her.

Right? We know she's a master manipulator. Yeah. But in terms of any actual thing about her, she has he has been telling him the truth for about twenty minutes. And those are the twenty minutes of his life where he's had the most adrenaline and out of body weirdness ever.

This is not consensual on his part, this exchange. Like, he is fucked in the head right now. Oh, yeah. And so he doesn't get the girl. He gets to go to the airport to have coffee with an attractive woman.

Sure. Anyway But he gets to go to the airport. I feel like that he loves that. But I felt like He's gonna he loves the fucking airport. Pen ink all over her pocket.

Also, he didn't That's kinda goofy. That's pretty goofy. It took her it took him way too long to think that she was in on. Anyway It's it's interesting. I'll con sorry.

I'll contest. It's only thirty seconds of the movie that, like, she's being open and honest with him. It's, like, almost nothing. Thirty seconds of the movie, I'm I'm thinking twenty twenty minutes of his life is how long I'm guessing. Oh, got it.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I get it.

I'm lost. Yeah. But, no. For the audience, we just met her in real life with who she actually is. You know?

Yeah. Even worse. Bad. Yeah. You were saying.

You know, I came honestly, I came in here To a decision. Because, again, I still somewhat entertained while watching the movie. Like, it's keeping my attention, and I'm it is like the mystery box, the seventh season of Lost where you're still watching, and you're like, I don't think any of this makes sense, but I'm somehow entertained. Or the box with James Marsden. Very diverse, like, you you know, resume.

His IMDB is wild. Great. I came in here thinking I was gonna be three because I went down a half, but I think I just talked myself into two and a half. Girl, do you know what that means? That means one of us liked it, one of us hated it, and one was meh.

This is the perfect scenario. You did so well. Three way boxing match. So I did so well. I'm two and a half Little Mac.

Two and a half suicidal clowns. I need to Hell yeah. I need to say that's good. That's really good. Liz, I need to say, as Ben mentioned, I got on like a soapbox.

I fought for Alien three. Good. I will listen to that episode the minute I leave. I think that we can all let's all understand and know that this this is not little Mac you're dealing with here. This is Mario Golf you're dealing with.

Where it's like, yeah. I'll I'll take some chips, but I'm not gonna take some hard swings here. You're at four. You're not at four and a half. That half makes all the difference.

A tainted four that needs a time. Criticism. Yeah. Yeah. It's good.

Tight fen ain't getting that pen ink out. We should start the movie. It was invisible ink. So maybe that shirt's fixed. That could be how this podcast resolves.

We should start the movie. Start the movie. Start the movie. Start the movie. And now our feature presentation.

We have to start with, Jesse Armstrong ripping off this opening sequence for the opening sequence of Succession. The puzzle pieces, is that in Succession? I haven't watched Succession. No. The the Succession you should watch the open I feel like pausing the recording and making you go watch the opening credits of Succession because the flashback sequences here are, like, home video with lots of, like, you know, grit lines on it.

And all yeah. And and grain and, like, this this sort of, popping quality of Mhmm. Of the video treatment that is fucking identical to the aesthetics of the opening of Succession. Oh, woah. I only watched the first season of Succession, but yes.

Yeah. I was just in my head, I was going I had to look up whether or not this guy was related to Michael Douglas because the guy He looks Yeah. Dead. Dead ringer. Plays the dad.

Dead ringer. Well, and I I'll say Literally. Dead ringer. Oh, no. The puzzle piece thing and some of this aesthetic, I'm like, okay.

I don't fully remember this movie, but I feel like I remember liking this ride. So I'm ready to go on the ride. Like, the movie immediately puts me into the kind of, like, it it's gonna be a layer on a layer on a layer on a layer, like, very quickly. I do think we don't they show us the thing about Nathaniel. Is that right?

Is that a Nicholas. Nicholas. Nicholas Van Ault and They show us what he does. They show us how he treats people, which is not great. No.

And they don't like, he doesn't really seem upset with his decisions. It doesn't seem like he feels like he's missing anything. It just kinda seems like he is There's no there's no Bob Cratchit character. Right? Like Mhmm.

Fincher himself calls this, you know, what if Kafka wrote Christmas Carol. Right? Oh, wow. Okay. Is a little bit of high praise to give yourself.

It is like k. I think the thing that makes a fundamental thing that makes A Christmas Carol work that doesn't work for this aside from the relationship between the visions in A Christmas Carol and what is wrong with Scrooge. Right? It's like teaching him something about the reason that he is wrong, and this guy's vision, quote, unquote, like, the the game that is played with this guy doesn't actually have any relationship to how he treats people in life. And, also, there's no Bob Cratchy character.

Like, the closest thing we have is, oh, shit. We said his name a minute ago, and I thought he was dead. Armand Muller Stahl's character, but, like Mhmm. Elderly guy that he's firing. But it is not evident to me that he unfires him at the end.

He walked up to him, and I thought he was about to, and he was like, hey, man. Sorry about earlier. And he was like, no. It's cool. This is the happiest I've ever been.

And I was like, why? What? Because he took those severance. Right? He Man.

Oh, he got he became severed? Ostensibly. Let's just let's just change cracks and start talking about severance. Sounds great. But but, yeah, it's like there's no person that he is wronging at the beginning of it that he was able to unwrong at the end, which means that his whole arc feels like just like being grateful maybe, but there's no there's no demonstration of that.

I have a mild counterpoint here at the beginning as I do find the score, like, very haunting and lovely. Yeah. I don't know if that's like, like what part of the score is for everybody here is that, but it is for me. But it's really evident in the very, the first part of the movie when Nicholas is getting ready in the morning and he has a servant that lives with him, a woman named Ilsa, who is the maid Butler caretaker. What, I don't know what all roles she serves for the household, but he is indifferent to her existence entirely in this moment.

He he eats standing up. Right. He he enjoys, like, essentially nothing. You hit it really well, Liz, when you said the Kafka thing. Like, I felt like I was like, oh, this is got like a Paul Schrader level of banality to it that is at this point is working for me.

And I do kind of I don't know if this is I don't even know if this is correct, But, like, the Downton Abbey kind of, like, like, I'm better than you. Like, you work for me. And that they they kind of go over that later where he says, what what type of man was my father? And she says, in all of the years I've taken care of you, like, essentially, we've never had a personal conversation. Yeah.

And so I do I do just think that sometimes the the way that the movie lays some of this stuff and then executes is just, like, really interesting. And the way in this moment where he he wants to avoid society and parties and his ex wife, he wants to avoid all this stuff. But the thing, the people and the things that have maybe moved on from him, but he wants to keep his dipshit, needy, fuck up brother in his gravity. And it it makes it clear, I think, in the beginning that he loves games where his secretary says, Seymour Butts left you a message, and he has to figure out, like, through a pretty simple code, that's my brother. And I have to see my brother because I need the the shot of I'm fucking better than you for my birthday.

I think more than anything, like, again, like, that's the Ben, you hit it too. Like, he's pretty irredeemable as we move to this lunch with Conrad. Pretty shitty. But he's he's an irredeemable irredeemable prick, but he's not an irredeemable actor. Like, he's not doing other than other than just, like, being a a financial guy, and, like, that sucks.

Like Sure. We don't see him, you know, using his money to short housing or to No. You know, fund an oil pipeline or something. Like, we don't his irredeemability is prickishness. And, frankly, Conrad, whose name is Khan, which, like, there's your birth red flag, acts exactly the same adds exactly the same way to towards, like, the wait staff.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, bringing up when you say it's Oh, good point. You say that Fincher said that this was, like, Kafka wrote Christmas Carol. It's so fascinating to me because Kafka famously is, like, super cold, and Fincher is, like, even like, is also super cold. And I think what that and Dickensian stuff is, like, the opposite of cold.

It's very, like, there's there's always some sort of heartstrings that's that are being pulled. There are no heartstrings being pulled in this movie. Not so far anyway. The closest thing that we've done to this, Paul, in terms of, like, story is Scrooged. And Scrooged Oh, there's a character named Claire technically.

We we see all yeah. We see all these characters that are around him that bring Yeah. The good out, like, the parts of him that are good out. And Conrad doesn't bring anything really good out of him. Well, I I see some humor.

Like, there's a little bit of humanity. And that's the thing. Yeah. I think it comes from a bad place though. You know, this this character that's very different than Gordon Gekko, but in a similar happy, baby.

You know, in a batter's box or wherever. Like, they're in a similar gravity somehow to a degree, but they're very different. I don't dislike this performance. I don't I I like Michael Douglas as a performer quite a bit. But in the and but Sean Penn in this moment and he where you get this touch of the humor where Nicholas says I don't know.

She's with a pediatrician or a gynecologist or a pediatric gynecologist. I don't know. Such a fucking dark line, dude. It is. Very funny, but super dark.

Oh, he's so gynecologist? Ew. So What are you talking about? Yeah. Conrad gives him this gift of, like, you know, it changed my life, and, it's this c I keep saying CPS, different thing.

Different thing. Pediatric gynecologist goofs. Sorry, Liz. And I just tried to talk over each other to make the same joke. Sorry, Liz.

We saw it coming. You and I both knew. We both knew. Ben, like, put that ball on a tee and and then He did it. Bat.

Yeah. I've played a lot of Mario Golf. I'm teeing up fast. We see him, like, he's turning 40 as his birthday or whatever, and he's eating a cheeseburger in October 11. And, you know One day away from the greatest day.

His dad killed himself on his 40 or when he was 48 or whatever. Yeah. But I think the thing I'm I'm trying to speed through this just because, I wanna get to the part that kind of, like, is for me one of the major character faults or, I guess, writer faults for the character, which is that he not only agrees, he sees the CRS in the same building. He goes up there. He talks to them briefly, and then he ends up committing to filling out paperwork and doing all this shit for, like, essentially the entire day.

And nothing that they have established in this person so far tells me that they would do any of that. Yeah. Does Ilsa show up at the end at his party at the end? Because I feel like she's in on it from the very beginning as everybody in on it. People yeah.

I think ill I think the game starts right after Conrad presents it to him. Like, at that lunch, when Conrad's like, I got you this thing. It's gonna change your life. It's an experience. This company is gonna whatever.

And Conrad, for, I think, maybe the first time doesn't need something. He's giving something, and I think that intrigues Nicholas to a degree. I think also no one including like when Nicholas shows up at CRS on on a whim randomly in this building that the woman at the desk is like, wait a second. No. There's something in the performance.

No one makes this man wait. This man waits for nothing, and I think he is massively intrigued by the fact that they are willing to do this to him in all his great power and recognition and, societal hatred of him as he understands that there's violence against his home. I I don't that's a bad way to put it. But I I love even in in CRS, there's Bill Russell, the former Celtics great and civil rights, leader, would have a drink, and this is something he would do with people he didn't know, and he would offer them a sip of the drink to get an idea of what type of person they were. And I even in this moment, I think CRS is doing that.

Do you wanna share this Chinese food from this random place with me? Basic random guy. And he's like, no. And I think they're already testing him. I don't think it's gonna be clear.

Oh, well, okay. Well, thank you. Yes and no, though. I think I think there's an extent to which you are just head canon writing a better movie and to fill in around this movie because, yes, I think that's I think that's true. I think that's an interesting read.

I think that's what I thought was happening. Right? They're giving him weird conflicting information. There's red flags popping up. Yeah.

He's ignoring them. Obviously, they're building, like, a very thorough social profile on him and how he's gonna react to all the scenarios they put him in, and they're and they're constructing this whole thing around him. So, like, yes. Why would the test start in the lobby? I love that.

But they have not set up, really, I don't think that he is the guy that would do that or that would be like, what what pushes him over the edge to actually show up at CRS and undergo this is additional banality. Like, there there is no moment where he's staring you know, if he if he was clinically depressed and needed to be shaken out of something, if he caught himself abusing an employee and then, you know, going full Scott Rudman then snapped out of it one like, god, I wish I didn't do shit like that, or if he like, if there was something in himself that he recognized as the thing Conrad is offering him a chance to change, and then he goes to CRS, then when he's standing in the lobby, I'm watching him thinking about how he's reacting to stuff. I'm seeing why why he's reacting the way he is to the test, etcetera, because you've now built a person who needs to change in this interesting way. We fear change. There is nothing that makes me think he would sit there for eight hours.

And more to the point, more importantly, there is nothing about what they put him through that I think they learned by making him sit there for eight hours. What they put him through, there's no point where they're like, we know this guy will like, right? That should have been a card turn. That would have been a great card turn to be like, yeah. We knew you would go back to this place because you sat there and kept answering questions.

That's an offer that's left on the table. I think they get an idea of how deep someone will go into the game, but also, like, again, I think you make a really solid point of, like, how much are you willing to reach or try to fill things in, or how hard are you willing to believe what you're filling in? Like, because I don't think the movie lays that. Yeah. Yeah.

Which means it's it's just us sitting here going like, oh, that's interesting. Sure. They didn't they didn't write that. That's just what we think happened because we're and here I'm I'm really just talking about you, like, a a writer, somebody who somebody who thinks about story in this way. Right?

And I say you because you're the one that said it because I'm looking at me, I am going like, give me more. Yeah. I mean, I so he gets a phone call saying, like, the game you weren't approved for the game. And so that's, like, obviously, the, like, you know, surprise element. He's never denied for anything, of course.

Yeah. Right? Right. He but he plays games by himself too. Like, I like where he's playing the squash game getting this information.

So He plays games, but he loves games, but he plays by himself. Me that they somehow are interrupting a news broadcast or some kind of The squash. The meeting. Some kind of, like, filter for some actor to play this news person, and that's all fine. There's a camera.

He's talking back and forth. In the clown. And then he starts to, like, take apart the TV, and the guy on the screen is looking down as if he can see the TV next to him being pulled apart. And I guess I just don't know what the fuck that's about. That feels like a Paul Verhoeven joke.

Thank you. Right? Like, that's funny. Interesting. Yeah.

But That feels like a that feels like a silly gag in a sillier movie Goofy. That would be overlooked if we listen to each other's words. I think I think the biggest thing for me is, like, this game is just to, like, traumatize him to the point Yes. Of of wanting to kill himself. Back way.

And, like, they start by putting a suicidal clown where his dad killed himself. And I'm like Yeah. Okay. What the fuck kind I guess I just think It ends and starts in the same I also don't believe that this is a company that could do this. Like, who are they the most powerful company ever in the existence of companies?

That's what I think one of the biggest issues I have with the movie now is, like, how it tries to play the ID with the idea of of how grounded it is. And it's, like, it's not it's it's not terribly grounded at all. Yeah. You know, the when when he's in the airport lounge, again, I think so much of this is the game. So much of it.

I think part of it for me is like being a Nightmare on Elm Street thing where so often in my life I've been like watching those movies. I've been like, we're in the nightmare. We gotta be in the nightmare now. Right. Yeah.

But that's but but that's a dream. There's a there's a there's a structure there that you can, like Yeah. Go back to. Correct. And it but the rattle that's there as he's enjoying, he lord, he loves those airplanes.

He loves all of them. Did I miss the part where he goes to so in time when he loves airplanes, flying Seattle. Not falling. Yeah. We don't see him come back?

I don't does he actually go to him? Would come back. He does. It felt like he okay. I I yes.

That was hard to track. It was like he so he went to go fire the the German dude. Yeah. But, yes, that was new shirt. But we never really see him come back.

He just is back. And then that German dude is also in San Francisco suddenly. He flies to San Francisco, like, while Nicholas is in the elevator. I don't think other than, like, the placement of certain things and what the way that, like, people end up in most places, some of the time anyway, makes some level of sense. That guy could have been in Marin County.

That's all I'm saying. Yeah. We didn't we didn't we didn't need to get on a plane for this. Just like basic instinct, man. I also like that he just kinda Douglas loves Marin County.

He lets like, it's not obvious to him that this waitress is in on it. You know? I'm like Yeah. You're a smart dude. You've thought so much of this is already part of the game and you're not in like, oh, maybe this waitress who's like, I've been told to follow might also be in on it.

Oh, what a surprise. I wasn't darn. That yeah. That's one of the most unbelievable things I agree. Well, and he says he saw her in that restaurant.

I think he mentions at some point that he's met her before in that same restaurant. He says, must be a bad month because I see you did this to me. Or he says you did this to me the Last week. Yeah. But they showed that.

They showed in the first restaurant scene, the person who spills tea, they they just show her from the shoulders up. From the neck down. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe he's referring to a different thing.

No. I think he's referring to Yeah. That's a good He might just he might just look like all kinda blonde. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or restaurants or both or service disposal, the whole thing. Yeah.

That's, like, half a star's worth of subtlety that I didn't fucking there. That I hadn't gotten into. That's more Yeah. Oh. And I gave this movie credit for already more theme, different theme.

I I do think there is something about how he treats the staff and how the movie is shot Yeah. At the beginning because we don't see a lot of them. The same with the homeless dude at the beginning outside. We only see his back, and that ends up being, like, the same look that he has at the end. Yeah.

So there are these things that I feel like are traces of theme that is is trying to be placed throughout it. It's just not very, to settle as a fucking hammer to the head. Well, and he he has this first thing that happens where he can't terminate Armand Muller Stahl because he can't open his his briefcase. And then he gets spilled on again. And, like, the most basic things is a person who has more power than one can essentially imagine if he wants to focus it on not sitting in a room for eight hours being like, what are we what's going on here?

What are we what are we doing here? What are you I'm a little perturbed with you, fellas. It's one of those things where it's like yeah. It's interesting how committed he is to wanting to play these games and what entices him. The the whole thing about her not wearing underwear Mhmm.

And how that is a continuous thing or whatever. Like, is this the thing that has to, like, be the thing that, like, breaks him as a gentleman or excites him or, like, what I don't under fully understand that. And she says and she says no to him. To the story. Yeah.

She says no to him. Right? Like Mhmm. That scene in the elevator, I would say, is the best scene of the movie for me. That's that's when I'm most on board with the movie because she's charming.

He's Yeah. Frankly not. Like, the the his little quips at the beginning or whatever, but, you know, you said Fincher's kind of cold. Kafka's kind of cold. Fucking Michael Douglas is pretty cold.

Right? Like, I think the the Kyle MacLachlan casting, I said this earlier, but, like, I think it would be hard. Like, seven is such an unbelievably brutal movie. Mhmm. And part of the reason it works is because I'm happy when I'm looking at Brad Pitt.

He just is charming. He just has charisma. And I think Kyle MacLachlan would have brought some level of charisma to this. And Deborah Kara Unger, who I don't know from Adam, when they're in the elevator and he's kinda bouncing on the balls of his toes and and he's got the key pulls out the key and he goes, I I got this from a wooden clown I found in my house or whatever. And she goes, okay.

Well, let's move on from that. What the fuck? Like, that's some of the best humor and most most sort of pathos and and charm that anybody has in this movie. She also is so good in this movie and in the role at times because I think she it's a well written kind of genesis of the thing and the whole thing between them that I, yeah. I don't know.

It's even in this boy. It's like even in this moment, there's a level of I hate him, but he's also like, I don't wanna look up your skirt and I won't. Where there's like a boy scout thing to him Yeah. That she brings out of him through her performance, I think. She's I think she's really solid.

She she's she's fantastic. She is. Yeah. She's very good. I I'm still, like, not sure how I'm supposed to keep suspending my disbelief on some of these things.

You know? Like, the the hospital that disappears. These things where I'm like, is every single police officer? Like, what is the far reaching where does this end? You know what would make that work better?

Oh, sorry. Oh, no. I was just gonna say that, like, I I can see a version of this story that could work if you were to introduce some sort of, like, I don't know, VR element, tech element, fun thing element. Oh, sure. I don't wanna watch Lawnmower Man two again.

But I but I I I just don't get four times. I don't buy I just don't buy it. I just I get that. It tries to ride weird lines. It's not even a toy.

But you said it, Paul. It tries to ground it in our reality. It's not telling us this is a sci fi world. It's not telling us it's it's trying to ground it in some truth and reality, and the the story does not have any grounding elements in it. It goes too hard into it.

Yeah. It goes too hard in the paint. I I agree. It feels like it could be like a like, I thought of after hours as as just, like, in terms of the just this can't get this can't get worse. This can't get worse.

This can't get worse. This can't get worse. But after hours almost has this, like, magical realism quality to it of, like, that is not our world where that stuff's happening to. And there's no magic. There's no whatever, but, like, it's heightened.

And this keeps trying to not be heightened. It keeps Mhmm. Going, no. This is literal. This is actually what's happening.

Yeah. And then the other thing I thought of was three days of the condor. And three days of the condor, on the opposite end, there's this big thing happening. It is very grounded, but it's, like, six killer operatives doing all of it. Right?

And everything else everybody else that turns against him, they convinced to turn against him, and they just keep finding ways to break through his defenses and make him not safe. But I believe six people being in on a conspiracy. It's like the the thing about, you know, the faking the moon landing versus, you know, covering up who killed JFK, where who cut who killed JFK, you could get three people in a room to go, hey. Let's not tell anybody we did this thing, and that's dead, which is why I'm like, hey. If we find out something happened there, I I'd believe it.

The moon landing is hard to believe because there were 10,000 people involved with that launch who would all have to keep that secret. Right? Yeah. And this is like the surprise birthday party literally from hell where, you know, this ballroom full of people had to keep this secret from him and play their parts perfectly. And that's where the suspension of disbelief.

It's like if it was heightened, that would make that a lot more functional. And the other piece, sorry to to ramble, but the other piece of this is if there was a domino feeling, if it was like this happened and because that happened, then this happened. That happens a little bit with the draining the bank accounts thing, but a lot of it feels very episodic. Shitty stuff keeps happening to him. His life is falling apart in a series of shitty ways.

Yeah. Instead of because this happened, now this can happen. And because that happened, this can happen. And so it scales up in that way. The whole staged drug scene at the hotel, he pretty much solved that problem and then moved on and had a new problem.

And I was like, oh, this guy's gonna be now the police are gonna be after him while his bank account's getting drained, while this is happening. And those things would compound, and they don't. They just sort of come in sequence. Yeah. It does escalate in a way that you can kind of map out.

That's a really good point. The the way it does it, the word the way you said it when you said episodic is just like, oh, like, that really I'm gonna lay down to a three and in the way, but when he sees Armand Muller Stahl and is like, Armand Muller Stahl is like, I I took the deal, man, like, smoking a cigar with my daughter-in-law. Like, let's party. Let's goof around. And Michael Douglas throws the photos at him, and they're like, it's fine.

You're forget high stress. And you mentioned another thing where it's like Ilsa and Sam Sullivan, Sully Sully Monsters Inc, Mike Wazowski, his attorney. But these people that have to deal with his prickishness that I assume are in on this to be like, we wanna help him help ourselves not deal with this prick anymore. And did Conrad and CRS get all these people together? Please stop trying to be grounded while you're so wildly not.

But, like Yeah. Are are the lawyer and the He says he's never in on it. People that great of actors? The lawyer says that they're very good in the in the party. The lawyer is like, I don't know what any of this is for, but Okay.

Happy birthday. They don't ever, like, I think I think that's a great point what Liz just said. I think Mhmm. I wanna say really quick. I like that this is such a David Fincher movie that has Michael Douglas, that has touches that are obviously not Adrian Lyne or Paul Verhoeven or Paul Schrader, but some people that Douglas worked with.

I just feel like the way that things are peppered and seasoned, the like, it comes together as a a pretty good stew. Like, you got yourself, like, you get pretty good stew going. I I like kind of the atmosphere of this so far. And You know what? What you just said reminds me of?

Do you remember that episode of friends where No. Rachel is trying to make a ladyfinger trifle, but two pages of the recipe book stick together, and she accidentally the second half of it, she makes shepherd's pie. And then and they all talk about how disgusting it is, but then when Joey's eating it, he goes, I don't know what's the matter here. Cookies, good. Cream, good.

Meat, Good. That's you talking about this movie. Like, you like all of the elements, but you like the Paul Verhoeven parts and the Paul Schrader parts. And I'm like, I love Paul Verhoeven. Paul Schrader is probably my favorite filmmaker.

They don't belong to it. Team up. Right. I don't need I don't need Schrader versus Verhoeven no sense. Under civil war.

Like, that is not that doesn't appeal to me at fucking all. What's your favorite Schrader? Left field here. Are you ready for it? Please.

Performed. That's my second. I love that movie. I love it so much. It's very hard to watch, especially considering the realism of some of the subject matter and what's discussed.

And then it goes hard in the paint on, like, here we go in the last few minutes, and I love that. But I love American Gigolo. I love that movie. Last ditch pitch for first reform, because it is a tough sell, is everyone's in taxi driver. Everyone loves taxi driver.

Yeah. To me, taxi driver and first reformed are the perfect bookends of young male rage and old male rage. Beginning of life, beginning of adulthood, male rage, and what you do with it when that tips into violence, and it's completely self destructive. And end of life I mean, not that that guy's not that not that either Paul Schrader not that Paul Schrader's dead or that No. Ethan Hawke is is a death story.

Is not old. Yeah. But, like, what you a mature version of being so angry at a situation that you must do violence. I I love those as a pair, as a double feature. Yeah.

That is not what we're here to talk about. Can we talk about too. I have a theory about this movie that I have developed while we've been sitting here, which is American Psycho came out a couple years after this. We talked about Wall Street. We've talked about a few different movies.

I wonder and I I I could if I had thought of this before we got on here, I could have thought of a bunch more. I think there was a mystique around money guys, around people who moved money around on this big level before the Madoff scandal and the two thousand eight crash Yeah. Where Boiler room. Yeah. Post then, these characters are fundamentally risible to me.

Like, I do not find these to be serious men. I do not find them to have value in the world. I do not find them they're they're the they're famously undatable, you know, and they're so fucking up their own asses. What? And we have this view into stock trading bullshit life.

It's just an MLM for boys. No. No. You're wrong. The smartest, best thing to do ever whenever you think your home is invaded is to walk in and yell, I have a gun.

Shake a little. That is the way, Liz. But I I wonder whether thematically before the big short era Mhmm. And and making fun of these cats, whether it wasn't enough in a way to paint a picture of a man who needed something, to just show a super rich guy who eats his little cupcake birthday cake by himself and watches TV as a portrait of a certain kind of thing that needs fixing because there was something respectable and mysterious about his job that now, like, I have no respect for that job. Mhmm.

And I wonder I wonder whether there's just a thing about the fact of it being 1997 when it was made. I mean, I I think that's a good theory. I mean, American Psycho was definitely one of the things that I loved around this time frame. Absolutely. Boiler Room, which is the you know, clearly loves the movie Wall Street, and there's a bunch of this kind of stuff with all sorts of actors.

I think that's part of the genius of casting Michael Douglas in this role Yeah. Because we've seen him in this role from different directors or it's just so in his lane. And also, like, in the lane of of Sean Penn having the meltdown of, like, CRS is coming after me, man. CBS is coming after me. CBS wants to repossess me, man.

You did a terrible job after dad jumped, man. I was the wrong kind of gynecologist. CPA. That was not a that was not a real doctorate I got. Tony Doctor.

He's a doctorate. He has he has the meltdown. That's what what I like too about the the Nicholas aesthetic. It's like, of course, he has, like, a BMW five series. Of course, he's in investment banking.

Of course, he wears gray flannel suits every day. Like, of course, of course. Like, he's cookie he's cookie cutter. He's a piece of a Yeah. Puzzle that is shitty every time it's Yeah.

Completed. I I I guess I think what what Liz is saying, which I think we're in that time frame. It's like, if we're comparing this to Christmas Carol, right, we get to a point in Christmas Carol. I'm very familiar with that story as I'm sure most people are. But we get to a point in that Mhmm.

In in that story where we see a moment Mhmm. Oh, yeah. We see a moment where Ebenezer chose business over love. Yeah. Mhmm.

And I think they try to do that with the conversation with his ex wife in this movie, but not really. It's like that is the moment we're that we're missing. We're missing this thing. It's like, oh, here's the thing that he, like, that really, like, was the point where his life changed. Yeah.

I just oh, for the okay. And we and we haven't had American Psycho yet. American Psycho is three years later. Right? We have the book, but we don't have the movie.

And so I think, again, to my to my goal of getting you guys to come down on your ratings on this, I think American Psycho is I'll bring you up. Way better portrait of the sort of sinister banality of these guys. Mhmm. But I think the sinister is the point. Right?

Like, I think there is a a mythos to these guys and sort of a evil, but in a sort of respectable way that we should all be careful about quality to this line of work and this level of wealth and prestige and having just, like, a really, really, really big desk. And and I think after American Psycho, there's, like, a little bit of a silliness. And then after 02/2008, I think it's like, these guys are fucking absolute quacks. They're completely smoking their own dope. They have no real value to society.

And I think it's hard to for me to watch this movie without that and just see what did we think these guys were, and could we just inherently accept this guy has chosen wealth and power over family, love, and looking out for people, and so something needs to change. And we don't they don't actually need to feel the need to dramatize that for us. Well, and I think that's the thing with Wall Street is at the end when Gekko and Fox have the showdown and Gekko's like, you could have been rich. All you had to be willing to do was like destroy your own father and all sorts of other people. You could have been me.

That's what you always wanted. And in this movie, by the end, he's melting down because it always felt like to me, like, he wanted to manage the money well. Like, he wanted to remove Armand Muller Stahl because it was like, look, man, I'm not asking for anything unreasonable. This needs to be better. People are losing money.

People are losing jobs. It's just time. And then at the end where you're saying, I manage $600,000,000, pensions, families. These people are destroyed. And you get this idea that there is, to me, like, a level of humanity, especially after the taxi goes into the Bay.

And I get this resident evil feel that I love where he is using all these little tools and puzzle. It's a game. I have this handle. And he gets out of the taxi, and the the the cops and CRS moving, and eating a sandwich dinner after his birthday and talking about the death of his father. Like, again, it's very thickly lane.

It's a lot of frosting, but there is But, to go to back to Liz's point of things don't don't domino. The the taxi falls into the water. He gets out, and then it's the next day, and he has the cops going to the CRS. I'm like, what? You just climbed out of a a a a moment where someone tried to murder you.

The cops should be there now. You need to deal with the situation now. Okay. I get it. Yeah.

It just that just goes away. What you're saying. Goes away, and then the next day powerful person, this would have happened within a moment. You are correct. Like, that to me.

You slept on it first. Like, really? But no. But I I think They had time to move. But Liz said it and it's, like, I'm noticing it more where it's, like, these are this is just bad writing where they didn't know how to finish.

Things don't lead into the next thing. Things just kinda, like, end and that thing's over, and now we're gonna go to the next thing. Because if this movie was just about a guy who got his income, like, everything stripped away and then put on to the streets of Mexico and had to, like, figure out how to get home, That's far more interesting to me, and that makes way more sense. This you're talking about things making sense, and y'all have both said this where it's he's at Christine's place, and he notices the price tag. And he's running with her, and she's like, it's a fucking con.

She whispers to him like that's the trap that they're in that keeps him involved with her and the whole deal. And he finds out after they go to his cabin that nobody knows about that the $600,000,000 is gone. And I think we get that little pepper of humanity of him expressing empathy about the money that I manage is gone, and the people that have livelihood based on what I manage, their lives are over. And I think that I think that's well acted in that moment as well as like the it is a little corny, but the way that he's like reborn out of a coffin, like, wakes up in Mexico, and the only thing he has is the watch that his father gave him. The last thing he has to give let go of because of this he has this attachment to his father and what happened to his father, and that has to go.

But that's not a theme. You know? Like like But he has flashbacks about his dad. Him yeah. Yeah.

Sure. Oh, my dad killed himself when he was 48. I'm 48 now. That's weird. Okay.

I have to let go of my dad in the form of this watch. That's that's, like, two little tiny things together. Right? Then there's, I He finally talks about it with I actually manage I actually man but that's not what the but but that's not what the movie's about. Right?

Like, I'm a huge fan of that kind of theme in the story, but nothing about his adventure except handing over his watch. Is it just he needed to get slapped and, like, woken up out of a daze? Because if that's the case, if that's the case, then I needed to see in act one him going through the motions some type of way. And, like, him having a cupcake by himself is kind of that, but it's not we've talked about it being thickly, you know, spread on and kinda beating over the head with something. Out.

But at the same time, there's no unified theory of what is it that this guy needs to learn. When I look at him and I love him and I want the best for him, but I see that he is broken in some way, and then I decide, you know, I'm gonna really put him through the wringer. I'm gonna teach him a lesson. And then at the end of the movie, everything will be better because he now knows that lesson. You taught me as much as I ever did.

What is that? What does he learn? And, also and Ben has already said this a couple times, but, like, just to close that loop, why is his reaction at the end, okay. Thanks, guys. I'm better now and not you all tortured me for forty eight hours, and I am going to see every single one of you behind bars.

If the story was he was getting conned, that's way more believable to me than what we get at the end. Alright. Because that's dialogue. Right? That's all of this was was for theft, and that's a motive I understand.

I agree with that. I do like this is I need to defend why I'm at least where I started a little, where he you can't imagine based on where he's like, my indulgence, my my sin in life, the thing that, like, makes me feel human is having a cupcake on my birthday. And then by by this point in the third act, like, he's begging for a ride after he sold his watch, like, to get somewhere. He has to break into his own house. It sounds like he's, like, coming when he's taking a shower.

A decision. He tips a taxi. When he gets a ride, he says, keep the change. And you'd you'd imagine that this guy never tips anybody. He thinks his brother's gone.

Like You'd imagine that, though. Like, that's the thing I keep coming back to is you'd imagine that. Why not just show me that? Why not just make it the same when I'm Steven, show me. I don't tip.

Because I write screenplays for a living Right. I which is, like, not a thing that the average person on the street needs to be thinking about, but I cannot help but go there. Like, a thing I like to see is when somebody fails a test at the beginning of a of a piece, has an experience that changes their worldview, and then at the end of the movie, they pass the same test. The a a very, like, simple boiled down, like, kid friendly version is like, oh, the dad in Finding Nemo, like, can't he's so into keeping an eye on his kid that he, like, compresses him. He's a bad father because he's holding on too tightly.

It's closer to real life. Yeah. He's a little bit nervous, but, okay, I'll let him go off on his own. Right? That's that's the exact same test passed and failed in one instance.

You just said tipping. Right? Like, if we see him think about tipping a server, but then, you know, they bump into a glass, and so he takes he takes the tip-off the table and puts it in his pocket and goes, never mind. They don't deserve that. And then at the end and then later on when he's in a more desperate scene, we see him saying keep the change and not caring about big fuck ups.

Now I'm watching evolution of a human. Right? Now I'm seeing and, like, those are those are identical things. Right? Those are both typical.

But, like, if we see this guy if if the theme is gonna be I really care about all the people whose retirement funds are tied up in my $600,000,000, then I need to see a scene at the beginning where he's flippant about that. So that when it when it really comes out, when that's really threatened, we see that that's what he really cares about. What And I'm just saying, like, there's a bunch of data spread out all over this, but no one of no one datum is telling me the story that I think you're getting from this. Sorry, Ben. No.

I'll just say what's weird is that if this the building structure here is Christmas Carol, that's all in that. Yeah. That's such a really good point. I I I also think, like, again, the he allows Christine to get fired early in the movie for because she spilled on him. And then the later echo of that to a degree is, like, the tipping thing, and I'm, like, reaching.

Like, you hit such a good point a moment ago where it's like, yeah. But you're saying you assume like this tipping fit, like, it's so much of it is assumption on my end. So much of it is filling things in or being like, Oh, this or maybe this or maybe this and just forgiving a lot of things. Yeah. I think that I maybe shouldn't be, but when he thinks he's lost Conrad, the the person that he can constantly, like, at least be a dad to as he's lost his wife and whatever, like, he's like, I don't have this person that I know I can lord over.

He goes nuts and can't even get water without a cap on it as he gets his ex wife's car and apologizes for being such a shit. Yeah. So is every single person in on it? Like, every single extra person wonder. Yeah.

That's what I wonder. They're that good of actors? Well, because he, like, brings a gun to the zoo, like, I don't know. You know? Like, is there and nobody's, like, got a, like, a Brings a gun to the zoo.

You're right. I like the carjack moment where, like, that's a little character evolution. Like, I like, I'm on the fucking edge. Like Yeah. Yeah.

But I kinda think if he had a gun on him, seeing one guy could have done that. The way he pulls it out of the pocket too is like Yeah. It's like not day. Not slick. Not slick at all.

Yeah. The ending of this, which we've been getting to is just, like Yeah. He he's in on it. He's or he's figured it out. He solved the conspiracy.

He's back. He goes after the actor, which is the Chinese restaurant, which they knew they were he was gonna do that. And, like, he was gonna go to the back to the base and find all of the actors there and then go to the roof and Hostages and Yeah. At no point do the actual police get involved because why would they? It's just people running around and gunning.

Is his phone a plant? Like, that's never explained. It's like, did they give him a different phone? Like, what happened? There's a taxi that disappears into the bay.

Why would the cop why would the real cops get involved? I don't know. Yeah. It's cut like, no. They say that.

They're like, we can't find the taxi that you were talking about. The fake cops were telling me that. Exactly. Yeah. There's just yeah.

I think overall, it's just a level of suspension disbelief that I it just does not work. Someone firing a large caliber handgun and jumping off a roof. No one in the general public was like, hey, nine one one? Like, a lot of this movie, you'd assume someone somewhere called 911 about something. Include, like, the jump to the mat.

Like, how fucking convenient is that I was gonna throw you. It's like like, if that was If you had to jump off the other side of the with x. He lands on the x. Yeah. He just walked to the edge of the roof and leaves.

X. Never. Wow. And then lands on the x. Works.

There you go. And he's just laying there calmly. They're like, there's breakaway glass, and he just kinda gets up, and they're like, surprise? Him being pissed myself. I fucking pissed myself.

Yeah. There is poop in my pants. Like, I need to go. I need to go now. But the the hug with Conrad and him being willing to, like, this changed me so much as a person.

I understand what it's like to be a person so much more. I'll split the bill with you. Like, again, like experience? Like, what if The I mean, he's, like, reborn a couple different times Yeah. In the coffin, after the jump.

He just needs to be for me, for this for how grounded this movie is, he needs to be shaking and sobbing for hours before they can pour the champagne. How grounded it wants to be to your credit, Liz, about what you just said. How grounded the movie wants to be. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I I almost like, to take it to Brazil, the way Brazil is structured, at some point Mhmm. At some point yeah. No kidding. Nice.

At some point Yes. He is tortured into insanity. And shit really goes off the rails, and then it's revealed that he's, like, lost in his own mind and that the the last, like, the last twenty minutes of the movie didn't happen. And you can tell when that happens because he sits down in a torture chair, and then everything is not just surreal, but, you know, magical after that point. And I feel like there's a version of this movie where they just had a different twist, where where he stood up and went, oh, it was all the game.

After all that, it was all the game. And then we reveal, like, his brother being wheeled away in an ambulance and him in a fucking straight jacket. And I think that would have worked better for me. This this genuinely felt like because it because I had to suspend this belief so far to think that all this had gone right, especially because they they reveal that. Right?

They reveal no. No. It really was just a game. Oh my god. He has a real gun up here.

All the rest of the guns were blanks, but this one's real. And they fucking schmuck bait you one more time before they do this. Another That you do you do feel like They're goofy. You're like, you're just waking up at the end and going, oh, thank God. It was all a dream.

You make such a good point too about the Brad Pitt thing in seven where there's, like, a level of charisma or energy or kind of young wet behind the ears kind of thing that happens. And with Griffin Dunne and after hours again, I think maybe it's where there's part of the miss is what ultimately and it's not a knock against Sean Penn as an actor at all where it's like, what what if there were someone with that kind of there's fingers happening here. You can't see that audience, but has that kind of energy like is does that make it any different? I'm left with a lot of questions. The puzzle's incomplete.

Mhmm. To me, it's incomplete. For for me, I don't feel like the puzzle I feel like they complete the puzzle completely. That's what I think is, like It's very sewn up. Yeah.

Mostly like, to me, that's why I I I dig something like inception because you're you're not obviously, you're left to wonder whether or not it's a dream or not, but also, like, there's an end to the thread, but it still is like this open ended idea. If this had ended with this idea that what if we left this thinking, like, oh, maybe he did die and this is, like, his, like, afterlife. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's interesting. That is interesting. But they don't. That's not that's not a thing. They don't.

Ends with him. That would be more that would be more interesting. Hey. Yeah. No.

It It ends he gets what he most wants in the end. He's earned it. He's back at the fucking airport, baby. He's watching Yeah. Games, baby.

Jerking off to them planes. I have a question because I feel like we're wrapping up. It's the game. But I We are. I have a question, which is, do you have a least favorite twist ending?

I think we all agree that Shutter Island is dumb. Mhmm. It's a movie that is just built for a twist, and the twist is boring and whatever. We don't have to get in the shit around. But do you have a least favorite twist ending?

I know mine. I would like I would like to hear it. Ben, do you know yours? Do you need a moment? Yeah.

I need a moment. Has anyone seen High Tension? It's a French horror film. No. I know of it, but I've never seen it.

It is one of those movies that was so popular for a period of time about multiple personalities. You didn't see that, did you? Like identity or Identity has that problem where it's like Yeah. Same matter. Of others in this moment.

But that is what that movie posits in the end and, again, tries to be grounded while it's completely unbelievable, like, portions of this movie, and yikes. Identity has a homeboy within the stigmas who's so compelling as the Pruitt Taylor Vince. Yes. Damn. Nice pull.

Legend of 1900 with him and Tim Roth. But identity has the same problem that I think this movie has, which is, I mean, it's weird to say this because the the movie's called the game. The first thing we learn is that he's gonna play this game and that he's not gonna know what it is, and he's not gonna be able to figure it out. Mhmm. And yet the twist is so disappointing because it's not really it's, like, so big brain, so we planned everything down to the second that it's like, oh, that's the that that just there's just an explanation that ties everything together, and we don't need to go into detail.

We don't need to do any flashbacks to show how. Just trust us. We did it. We we're actually this good. And I think that's the the multiple personality or the it was all a dream explanation is sort of the same thing where it's like, it's the it's just that big and that crazy that you didn't think of it.

Ben, did you come up with one? I think I did. I think it's the village. Oh. Good choice.

The village is rough because it has a great twist ending. And then my theory is m Night Shyamalan was just like, yeah. But I wanna be in this movie, and there weren't any Indian dudes here in 1648. So what if there was one more twist that ruins the previous two twists? Who had an August 6 birthday, which is also important to have.

And it but it's also, like, what an airplane never went over? An airplane, like Shout out to my cousin Robin who will listen to this whose birthday is also August 6. Shouts to Robin. Shouts to Moses Olsen. Shouts to the August 6 b day people.

Shouts to Hiroshima. Shout. Yep. Run tour. Sorry.

I thought we were I know. I thought we were talking about the worst day in history. Things? Yeah. We're talking about the worst day in human history.

You're just saying that because Jess just got home, and she was in Oppenheimer. Mystery men came out that day. All sorts of stuff. I forgot to mention that my wife was in Oppenheimer. Has that come up yet this episode?

It's true. True. Not this episode. Not this episode. Should come up.

Not this last hour. Yeah. Every episode. I agree. I am actually I'll send you the petition.

Okay. We need to rerank this and get out of here. We do. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's do it. This game has left me exhausted and full of piss and shit. I think yeah. I mean, you don't have somewhere to jump off to let it all out. I get it.

Not with a bad under it. I think Liz should go last because I think that's, like, will was I or were you was anything was anyone able to bring that up? I can't use liberty rule, which is the quarter score. So I'm at the point where I think I would be reticent to recommend this to a ton of people. I don't think I would be super interested in watching it again and being like, you should watch this.

Partly Partly because I'm gonna be like, well, it means this. I think it means this. I think it means this. I think I think I bet that sounds exhausting as Ben is exhausted. Liz really fucking called it.

I still think it's beautiful. I think it the score is so fucking haunting. I think a lot of it's so well acted. Shouts to Deborah Cara Unger and James Reeborn. That's great.

And a bunch of people that do good work in this movie. I'm gonna go with three monogrammed dress shirts. I think a lot of the movie itself is really great to look at, and I think that you guys really fucking nailed it in that, like, we try to have a lot of reverence for writing in this, and sometimes maybe that's misplaced. And I think I misplaced it here, so we're gonna go with a three. For what it's worth, Paul, I would love to see you rewrite this movie.

Oh. Because I think you have all the right ideas about what is what you think is good about this movie is exactly what I was hoping I would get from it. Right? Thank you. And so you should just write it and put that shit in for real so that it's there for everyone.

I did run into Andrew Kevin Walker once. I'm sure he'd be thrilled for me to be like, look. I ran into you this one time. Together on the picket line above. Oh, maybe I ran into him.

Twice. And he was actually. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice and also Lovely guy.

Pretty scary. Also, being the vibe. So he was like, no. We're on the same side, so everything's chill. But if we weren't, I could be scary if I wanted to.

And I was like, that trash. I I loved his Eddie Van Halen guitar side. Yeah. That was great. Was rad.

I didn't know it was him until after speaking to him. Somebody was like Jono was like Jono. Yeah. Jono or you? Somebody was like No.

It was Jono. Jono was the Jono was the kid. I had Trevor Kevin Walker. I was like, Paul? Yeah.

Ben, score, please. Paul? You know, when I when I first came into here, I was at three well, before I talked myself into two and a half, I was at three suicidal clowns. And I'm not and if I if I had liberty rule when I started, I probably would have been at 2.75, but I didn't have liberty rule, so I just went to two and a half. And I think that I don't wanna It's okay to say that.

Beat around the bush, and I think I wanna stay at two and a half. Okay. I I think it's hard for me it's per it's hard for me to go lower than that just because there are elements of this movie that I find entertaining. Mhmm. It it's that for there's, like, elements of this that are the first season of Lost where you're like, oh.

Oh, what's happening here? Woah. What's happening here? It was the smoke monster. And there's a lot of this where it's, like, the eight star a smoke monster.

What? The fuck is going on? We knew we were to put the squibs there. I'm happy to give it two and a half, and I am gonna have a conversation with my wife. It's gonna be tough, and I apologize.

You're welcome to be a friend. I don't know why. I foresee a gremlins type. I will I will deliver chocolate and flowers that you can, yeah, that you can have for her. I I definitely am moved by the assessments that people are making of of the more entertaining elements and of of the things that I wasn't because I was so stuck on how much how frustrated I was with some of the writing choices, elements like the score that, I hadn't thought about as deeply even though there they were being, you know, all Howard Shore and brilliant.

But that said, I think my problem with being entertained along the journey is I was trying to solve the puzzle, and the answer to the puzzle is we were fucking with you like we said we would, which to me, like I know who I undermines any potential coolness of why is this happening? What is the goal on this journey trying to figure it out? It's like, well, it was all it was all a dream. You know, she wasn't the best blind swordsman. She's not blind.

It was all learn to tip. He's gonna learn to tip. But I am willing to go up to a full incriminating Polaroid. Oh, no. You get one.

You get one. Everybody gets one. Little Mac, baby. Little Mac. Don't give up, little Mac.

I didn't give up, but I also came down a full point. Hey. We had such a great time talking about this. I'm almost certain of it. I know.

I have a feeling. I had a great time. Yep. This was this was what I wanted the next time I came on the show. I was determined to do a movie that we would really review each other's reviews on.

I'm going to have a great time not watching this ever again. And that's really what I care about. That's what I really wanted out of this experience. Yes. Liz.

If I can just, one by one, convince everyone in the world not to watch the game again. That's the game. That's the game. The game. Oh, I just lost I just lost the game.

I think Conan O'Brien needs 700 copies of the game on DVD. Everybody, can we just, like, shout, Liz? Fucking What? Way to go. Way to go.

Way to, like, really fucking own the concept and, like, really bring it. And Liz. Yeah. Fucking you're an all star. Let's let's Yeah.

Hell yeah. Praise the place. All this in. Fuck. Yes.

This was what I this was the validation I needed. This these were the pets on the head I sought by getting up this morning. And Thank you, man. It was a fucking delight to hang out with each other. Mission accomplished.

In a real long time. So this was Yeah. It's been way too long. Way too long. Mission accomplished, though, I wanna say.

Like, in all seriousness, no goof here. Not the George w mission accomplished. Actually, no goof. Yeah. Going back to the last time I saw this movie, Ben Yes.

Can you tell me about you and people that are, oh, oh, involved in this There's another kitty. Program And a dog. There's I just put a cat. All sorts of beautiful creatures. Wanna show that I was looking at a cat this whole time.

I did wake her up, though. Oh. Well, my favorite. And now the dog is very excited. Liz, thank you so much for being here.

Follow me at run b m c on Lutterbox or Instagram. Yeah. Ben, I wanna say over your right shoulder, I'm gonna say soon. You're going to have the conversation about the game that's your upcoming game. You can follow me on letterbox to at paul acts badly.

You can follow Liz at liz ellis or at liz ellis liz. What of this? On Letterboxx on Letterboxx, I'm pretty sure I'm Liz Ellis Liz. On Instagram, I'm Liz Ellis Liz Ellis. On Bluesky, I'm Liz Ellis.

If you just type Liz Ellis into things, eventually, I appear. I wanna say is we were talking about these things that correlate. Again, as we're about to depart, watch the madness on Netflix. It's a lot like the game but better. And Colman Domingo is great, and I always call him Ned Ryerson.

Steve Toba Steven Tobolowsky is great. It's got a bunch of great actors. He's in there. Bradley Whitford's in there, but they moved Bradford? They moved one of his scenes, the one scene that he had in my episode to the next episode, which means that we do not technically share an episode credit, which, breaks my heart.

Well, give it time. You give it time. I know it's gonna happen. I foresee it. Hairless pets.

Shit. Okay. Our bookends are Jamie Henwood. What are we doing? What are we watching?

Our Matthew Foskett. Fun facts, Chris Olds, interstitials are Ben McFadden. Please follow us at review x two podcast on Instagram and blue sky. We're available on all your pod places. Good pods is a nice way to do it.

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